Where are the Apostles and Prophets?
August 8th, 2007 by Carl Thomas.This is the post I do not want to write.
The Assemblies of God is having its convention this week and they will elect a new General Superintendent. The only reason this is a big deal is because so many people think this will have a great effect on the direction of the AG.
Follow me here.
The Assemblies was born in revival as people were kicked out of their congregations for receiving the baptism in the Holy Ghost. Others formed new congregations that were on fire and sought fellowship with like-minded ministries. From the AG website:
A cooperative fellowship emerged from the meeting and was incorporated under the name “The General Council of the Assemblies of God.” Most of the delegates had little desire to form a new denomination or sect, and they structured their organization to unite the assemblies in ministry and legal identity while leaving each congregation self-governing and self-supporting. This structure continues to the present.
While it is true that the structure continues to the present, the need for the structure and the desire of the delegates has strayed far off of that original path.
You want to know the definition of a “Spirit-Filled” church today? Loud music and a little tongues. That is it. The Spirit may come in worship but He better leave in time for the welcome and announcements because we are moving the service along.
I wonder what would happen if a church could not call itself Pentecostal unless the Apostles and Prophets came and tested the meetings against Pentecost and discerned whether or not the same Spirit that fell on Pentecost was at work in the service.
Ooops, I forgot, the AG does not believe in Apostles and Prophets anymore. In fact they have a whole position paper on it. No, today the AG has senior pastors and missionary evangelists. The other terms might offend somebody. And they might actually carry the anointing that comes with the office.
No, we are happy to hear Bible stories of miracles and declarations that we will see them again but we do not want to take any risks and declare “And we are going to wait until it happens today.” And we certainly are not going to call a fast to hurry its coming.
I read lots of comments in blogs where people pray that God send revival to the AG. Have you forgotten Brownsville? God did send revival. The denomination got itself wedged into the middle and the thing and caused a series of splits in the congregation.
The move in Toronto that was mocked by many AG people still has all the key players on staff a dozen years later. The real difference? Toronto recognized that God was doing something new, left their denomination and started a new move. Brownsville tried to make the move of God fit into a denominational structure. God was merciful and touched many lives but the effect is still there. Toronto has a convention center that is paid for and all their staff either in tact or sent out with blessing to start a new work while Brownsville is strapped with debt and the wounds from the splits.
I know this is a wandering, meandering train of thought but an important point here: The AG of today lacks focus and has sought expansion at the cost of its founding mission: revival. I read Mark Batterson’s blog every day and I love what his church is doing but there is no connection between his fellowship and Brownsville, or Azuza, or Pentecost for that matter.
What does the AG need? Decentralization. Right now, churches operate within the structure of the organization. The national structure needs to be cut back to the point of only supporting missionaries. Tell the congregations to seek the Lord as to the direction He is leading and then come back in 10 years to see what structure is needed. Determine that religious spirits will be cast out of the fellowship and declare that we are moving forward in revival. Partner with what Bill Johnson, Randy Clark, Che Ahn and others are doing.
Get a fresh move of God. Open the door to let congregations that really just want to be a slightly more spiritual then Calvary Chapel to leave. Rebuild a fellowship of churches that want revival and move on in that path.
In the end, the AG needs to decide if it wants to be a cooperative fellowship of ministries born in the fire of the Holy Ghost or just the new Methodists.
I will pray for this convention. But my prayer is not for the right leader, it is for purpose.
edit: I wanted to add that this is in no way an indictment of all AG churches. I was speaking about the denomination and its direction. I attend an AG church and I do not hesitate to recommend it to those seeking a church. Simply being a part of the AG is not wrong and in fact there is much good in the denomination.
—————-
Now playing: Jeff Deyo – Bless the Lord (Featuring Rita Springer)
Possibly Related Posts
- Ministerial Credentials – From Who and Why? - with 11 comments
- Brownsville Update - with 7 comments
- Steve Hill and John Kilpatrick Bless the Florida Outpouring - with 1 comments
Your post is so right on, but the problem runs much deeper. The AG has persecuted every move of God that doesn’t involve it.
Back in the day of the Healing Evangelists they threw Jack Coe out. One of the honchos in the denomination said he would not rest until he stripped the credentials off every one of the healing evangelists. He did and none of them missed a beat over it.
The AG was determined to make Brownsville fit their mold. The didn’t want the embarrassment that comes with a fresh move of God.
I just saw a CNN video from Brownsville. I was there back in the day. I stood in line and was only able to get into the overflow room. In this video, the church was barely half full.
The AG needs to change their name to the Assemblies of Man because God has very little to do with their agenda.
Reply
I get really wound up on this topic. I am currently studying the life of AA Allen and have been put in touch with some wonderful people who knew this man and his ministry.
The AG loved Allen until his meetings outgrew their churches. He was an AG pastor long before he became an evangelist. They wanted him to only hold his meetings in AG churches. The problem was there were no AG churches big enough to hold the crowds. Come on, the man had a 22,000 seat tent for goodness sakes!
Allen insisted that his meetings be a God thing and the AG insisted they be an AG only thing. When he refused, they went after him with a vengence.
RW Schambach swears he was in the car the night Allen was pulled over for DWI and had been with Allen all evening. He had had nothing to drink. The media was there when the cops pulled Allen over. Now who could have staged that, do you think?
Allen had a running battle with the AG after that. He had no hesitation in telling pastors they needed to pull out of denominations that relied on programs and procedure rather than the anointing and presence of the Holy Spirit. If you have access to old issues of the Miracle Magazine, Allen was faithful in giving an account of this running battle. He made it a point to publish the letters the AG sent him in there so there was no question of who said what.
Anyway, I get really hyper on this subject because I watched the AG destroy Brownsville. I see now that they attempt to destroy and discredit whatever opposes them.
Of course, if you look at the history of their foundation you find that they were really formed because the founding fathers were offended that a black man was preaching to white people at Azusa Street, and they were offended at the fact that the crowd was integrated. There’s a reason the AG formed and the Church of God in Christ formed. Both pentecostal denominations tracing their roots back to Azusa Street. One white, one black.
Reply
I’m planning a church plant right now with some brothers, and we’re working through this issue. Is there any fellowship out there that would be appropriate for us?
Here is a list of every apostolic network or fellowship I could dig up
http://theriddles.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/4/23/1905057.html
And at the bottom you’ll find a list of pseudo-networks, and link to every pentecostal denomination.
I wouldn’t look for the AG to become anything other than the AG. They do have a hesistancy for the deep things of God there is really no arguing that. However, they have managed to be the most successful organized group in the world at fulfilling the Great Commission. It’s hard to overlook that. In a sense, they are exactly what God has called them to be.
I would argue, though that when ministries are separated from a denomination, often both parties lose. The AG needed those guys in the fellowship, and Jack Coe, etc needed the stability and platform of the worldwide organizatoin.
Regarding Bill Johnson, note that they WERE associated with the AG for a long time, and they left against the wishes of the AG.
http://www.ibethel.org/churchlife/index.php?f=letter.html
Hillsongs is AG and they are definitely on the cutting edge of worship at least.
As for me, all I want is the deep things of God. One night a meeting where God shows up is worth every day from now until then to get it. I want to be connected to some like minded brothers who want the same thing, I don’t care how they call themselves.
Reply
@Patsy EastwoodYou wrote: “Of course, if you look at the history of their foundation you find that they were really formed because the founding fathers were offended that a black man was preaching to white people at Azusa Street, and they were offended at the fact that the crowd was integrated. Thereâ’ a reason the AG formed and the Church of God in Christ formed. Both pentecostal denominations tracing their roots back to Azusa Street. One white, one black.”Does that mean, the AG is rooted in racism? If their founders were offended that a black man was preaching to white people at Azusa Street, that is plain racism to me. Wow. Well… no good fruit can come out of a bad tree. So I guess, the “main tree” of this demonination is sick. But there are AG churches out there that seem to be doing pretty good in my eyes, aren’t they?
Reply
@ Patsy – How do you really feel? lol
The AG did have rampant racism in its past. The funny thing is that much of the AG growth of today is from Hispanics from south and central america.
Reply
@Will – I agree with you in that nobody has fulfilled the great commission greater than the AG. And you can only applaud the fact that they did not set up a world church ala Rome but made each country a separate governing body with no international head.
I agree that the AG is going to stay the AG. The real benefit of the denomination is the stability. You really don’t have to worry about some guy’s wife getting a revelation back at the home office and now everyone is forced into a new theology.
Actually Bill Johnson was a fourth generation AG pastor if that tells you anything. He left and is leading Global Legacy which is the Apostolic Network. TheRiver is just a licensing agency for ministers. If I lived within two time zones of them I would join this movement.
As for your list of organizations, the only ones that came to mind that I did not see is Acts29 and Sovereign Grace. I cant agree totally with Acts29 based on their view of women and SG is not quite pentecostal enough for me though they are Reformed Charismatic.
Thanks for the thoughtful comments though!
Reply
@Tom – The AG was founded with racism but so was my country. There are some truly great AG churches. I attend an AG church and I have no hesitation in inviting people.
Again – There are great AG churches. This post is in no way an indictment against every AG church. It is meant as a criticism of where the denomination as a whole is going.
Reply
Good Question Carl- Where are the apostles and prophets?
I attended an AG church for a year in my faith journey and still have fond memories.
Bill Johnson and Bethel Church resigned from AG last year, not because there was anything wrong with AG but in order to be free to follow a different direction whole heartedly.
I don’t know of all he issues, but ministry was one, and Bethel has their own training school.
I can remember that in one sermon Bill mentioned to his congregation that they were going to pursue revival 100% and if any of the members just wanted a ‘regular’ AG church they might want to consider attending one of the other AG’s in the area. This was controversial to some long time members who had been there during his father’s pastorate.
Another issue seemed to be that Bethel was closer and had network of churches that were not AG. VCC Laguna Niguel where I attend is like a sister church to Bill Johnson’s and of coarse we are a Vineyard. As I understand, there was some slight pressure from the area Sup.to have closer relationships with other AG Churches.
I do pray for the AG and their continued involvement in missions and in seeking revival. I do believe that as denominations go, they are one of the very best.
Reply
Great post, Carl, you raise some good and thoughtful questions. As to the impact of a general superintendent, I really do lay a great deal of the responsibility for increasing centralization over the last 20 years at the feet of Tom Trask and his leadership team. Of course, the A/G minister voted them in and, presumably, God is sovereign and had a hand in that. It may well be that God has a plan for the A/G and that plan may not include leading the Pentecostal movement any longer.
Only time will tell.
Rich
BlogRodent
Reply
Will,
We are working through this stuff in our plant as well. My pastor recently hooked up with Bill Johnson and Global Legacy. Good stuff is happening through that connection for us.
I agree about the need of the Healing Revival evangelists for relationship. I have posted about some of that on my What is an Evangelist series on my blog http://rahabsplace.wordpress.com.
The AG has problems with Hillsongs because Brian preaches prosperity, which they have a position paper against. That will be intersting to see how that plays out.
Reply
Just an aside on racism. I think the all-time winner of the racist denomination award would have to be the Southern Baptist Convention. They did issue a formal apology in the 1990’s for that, but it’s rather difficult.
“Gee, guys, sorry we used to teach that black people have no souls so it’s okay to own them. Oops. My bad.”
How do you convincingly repent of that? But I give them credit that they are making the effort.
Reply
Carl:
Didn’t think the A/G as a topic would get so much, ahem, attention. I really do like one suggestion you made, to do away with sitting superintendancies, and instead task sitting pastors with those leadership responsibilities. Staff could easily be hired to maintain retirement, healthcare, finances, etc. Why waste productive, gifted church leadership by sending them off to be paper jockeys in Springfield and all the various District Headquarters. Folks of that stature can’t sit and twiddle their thumbs and so their energies go into expanding bloated bureaucracies, and building worthless buildings. Thereby the institution grows instead of the church. That would be a great change!
Reply
As you know, Carl, I have resisted the temptation to jump in … but then … everyone has their weakness. I have been blessed and challenged by your posts. Just a few thoughts.
As a child I attended AA Allen meetings (yep it dates me), and I was profoundly moved by the Holy Spirit, received a significant impartation, and witnessed many exceptional miracles. As to his death and the circumstances, I can not say. But the meetings I attended consisted of genuine encounters with the Holy Spirit, at least for me. I remember them with fondness.
My family was saved in a small AG church (40 people), where in the community the members were considered a cult, and those who did become â”holy-rollersâ” were persecuted. I was persecuted in middle school. As far as I know, I was the only Christian student, and I carried my Bible each day to school and put it on the top of my desk. It was a tough year. Not even the adults intervened, except on one occasion. I remember the fights at home when my mother got saved. Dad threw her out of the house two times with a suitcase. She stood her ground, and with the support of the godly people in that church, my family as well as many of my relatives today has a personal relationship with Jesus. We had meetings that went on for hours where all we did was wait on the leading of the Holy Spirit. A three hour meeting would seem like only a few minutes. It was amazing and wonderful. Eventually the persecuted minority grew (about 150) and was responsible for a youth revival in the two high schools in town. Astonishing things happened as I witnessed many of the kids that I attended school with come to Jesus and filled with the Holy Spirit. There were signs and wonders and experiences in the Spirit.
Yes, things may have changed … but I am grateful for the heritage that I received in the AG. The first time that I received ministry in a â”prophetic presbyteryâ” by those recognized as a prophet by the local church (and in the local church) was years later in an AG church (1500 people).
David Cartledge is the author of a book entitled: â”The Apostolic Revolution – The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets in the Assemblies of God in Australia.â” It was published in 2000. While I have not been to Australia, it is a fascinating read, though lengthy and at times laborious – 415 pages.
Racism is a sin. It should not be tolerated.
Is everything well in the AG? No.
Was everything well in the churches that received letters that we call today call the New Testament? No.
And … do I attend an AG church today? No. But my heart will always carry precious memories because it was through the AG that I met my first love – Jesus.
Reply
slw – Me neither. If it were a dead move, nobody would care. But it is not dead! And they should not let it die!
And I think we are in agreement that the national office should not be a career path. The way it is set up, the position is not Apostolic so it is some corporate aberration.
Have the pastors pastor!
Reply
@Ruben – Great to see you coming out of the shadows and chime in. I did not think of you when I wrote this but I know you have lots to say on the matter (maybe the beginning of a blog of your own?)
The AG does have a rich heritage and I do believe the overt racism is in the past.
That being said, there is something about doing something the devil wants to persecute that lights the flame of revival. That something has left the AG as a movement. There may be pockets but by and large, it is gone.
Reply
Reuben, thanks for your insight in the AG. I did not mean to suggest that there was never a time that God wasn’t doing stuff in the AG.
By the way, I am doing research into AA Allen. I would love to chat with you about what you remember. Would you email me at rahabsplace@hotmail.com if you are willing to share your memories?
Reply
@ Carl … is that an offer for technical assistance? You may not know it, but your writings have caught the attention of the national office of â”Watch Dog Ministries.â” They keep me on retainer when concerns arise in your geographical area.
@ Patsy, I took no offense, so be at peace. I no longer attend an AG church. Sadly, the things being said in this discussion about the AG are valid. I wish you the best with your research about AA Allen.
Reply
@Ruben – It is. I have done it for lots of folks I didn’t even know. There are lots of options that are easy and free (though one really good one).
Let me know.
Reply
I agree with what you are saying… just as you said, this is not a slap to all AG folks… I am an AG Licensed pastor of a church. I am 5 fold, my church is 5 fold and we will not be moved! God has done great things at our church because we have allowed Him to do so and not confined Him to a box. it will be very interesting to see what transpires in the AG over the next year or so…
Reply
by the way, my church web address is http://www.clife.cc …. check us out!
Reply
hi All,
We at King’s Ministries International now started the church ministry too. We look forward to have association with our growing network, We have a team of youngsters who are annointed for Five fold ministry. Every week we are conducting new meetings in different parts of the Southern State of India. We Welcome people to join with us in prayer. We do have wonderful projects ahead. Stay Connected with King’s Ministries international. Our web address is http://www.kingsministries.com Check us out!
Reply
hello. yeah man . i know want ur talking about . ppl just dont want apostles bc of the authority they bring. my church has apostle, prophets, teachers , evangalist and pastor. but we like the only one in this state that has it, churches just need to stop trying to split and try to disagree the bible. if its not in the bible dont make it up,, i dont care if u ag , or baptist or watever u mite be. just listen to the word of god. we are all sons of god and followers of christ whenever ppl get that they will take their rightful place in this earth. not just a christian but a co heir to the throne and son of the most high.. u most let holy spirit flow in ur service if ur not ur missing out trust me,. holyspirit controlls our service and he can run how he want.. ur article is very good man
Reply
I AM A PROPHET OF GOD AND WOULD LIKE TO SHARE WHAT GOD IS ABOUT TO DO IN THIS SEASON
Reply