Lord?
July 26th, 2006 by Carl Thomas.Over the past several months I have heard God talk to me as soon as I wake up. I even blogged about one such occasion here. This happened again yesterday. I was really startled. It was one sentence and it was very matter of fact about a signifigant prayer request that I have had. As soon as I woke up I heard it.
I hear God lots but this is kind of new for me. Does this happen to anyone else? Any other odd ways of hearing God?
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The Bible.
-Jonah
Not sure I would call the bible an odd way of hearing God. That really is the most sure fire way of knowing God’s will (or at least confirming it).
Sorry, I didn’t mean “odd” in that sense. But it is “odd” in today’s culture to see people actually using the Bible to find God’s word. I’m a former charism-addict and have seen all too often people led astray by “words” from God and signs and wonders that are unprecidented in Scripture. Extra-biblical revelation, even if you do believe in it, cannot be the basis of our theology. The only assurance that we have is the infallible. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
-Jonah
Hearing God speak to you? Audibly? The last person I heard claim that, also believed he was Marco Polo and had a cosy line in *really* tight-fitting white jackets with arm straps and buckles.
I suggest eating less cheese before bed, or consuming less *cheese* from certain Charismatic preachers. In the words of King Lear -
“That way madness lies”
Danny - You quote King Lear, I will quote the Bible, “My sheep hear my voice and they obey.”
Guess who said that? And I think that when God speaks, He does not only quote the Scriptures.
Carl, I think a little context on that verse would help. I also think that Hebrews 1 would give us some more insight. (rough paraphrase) In the past God spoke to your fathers thru the prophets, but today He has spoken thru Jesus.
I don’t really like “prooftext wars,” but if you can let go of some of your preconceived ideas and really study both sides, you’ll find that time and again error comes when someone has a notion that they’ve “heard from God.” (JW’s, Mormons, Moonies etc…) Even Grudem, who I think is pretty generous with the gifts, doesn’t define prophecy in the OT sense when used in the NT.
Your comment about God being limited to the Bible is interesting. I agree that God can do whatever He chooses, but He cannot contradict himself. We cannot add to the Scripture either. That is one of my problems with the charismatic movement.
-Jonah
Just a quick question, how do you get the verses to pop up like that? It’s a really great feature. CSS, software? Thanks.
-Jonah
Jonah - first http://www.musterion.net/wordpress-esv-plugin/ is the plugin for the scripture popup.
Second - The whole Bible is the record of God talking to and through people. I have no idea how someone can read the Bible, claim that the Bible has authority, then claim that the things that are the foundation of the Bible, revelation from God, does not happen. That would make the Bible void. After this type dogmatic teaching, do you wonder why the two prophets will be murdered in the last days? “God prophesied through people in the past, He will do it in the future, but He does not do it now.” What kind of theology is that?
Look at Corinth. They had far more problems then we have today. What did Paul tell them to do? Seek the best gifts. Seek after prophecy.
Do people have such a small vision of God that they believe He cannot speak to people? Is He incapable of making His pure revelation known? Is he so weak that He cannot overcome the flesh and imaginations and communicate? Is that the God some have created?
Should I go in prayer and say, “God, please stop talking to me. Some guy on the internet said it could be bad for me to have a personal relationship with you.”
(not gonna do it)
If I had a plumber that could never fix the pipes I wouldn’t say that plumbers don’t exist. I would find one that could do the job. I don’t need a pope to tell me what God is saying. That is what He sent His Holy Spirit for.
By all means call out error. Challenge those who give unbiblical instruction. But don’t put God in the grave because some have excesses. And if you were the victim of a ministry that flowed in goofy theology, repent to God for sitting under it and move on (that’s what I did.).
Thanks for the link.
I can see where you are coming from because I grew up in it, but according to scripture, there are only 2 groups of people that could infallibly speak the very words of God. The prophets (OT) and the apostles of Christ. (NT) I’d encourage you to read Wayne Grudem’s The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today. I don’t agree with everything, but it does a very fine job of explaining these things in a way a charismatic can understand. Plus he actually has a degree, unlike most of the authors of books on similar subjects.
I am not in any way saying that God does not speak today. I simply find that when “revelation” from imperfect human beings is regarded as anything more than something that the Holy Spirit brings to mind, the Scriptures are compromised. That is something that no Christian should tolerate.
-Jonah
1 cor 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
Was Paul only talking to the Apostles when he wrote that? And were they apostles if they could not prophesy?
Acts 21:9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. Would you say that these four daughters were apostles of Christ? I do not believe that the Scriptures would support that.
I think that the error lies in not having a balanced Christian life. There are men and women now who are highly respected prophets that speak all kinds of things that not only don’t come to pass, but are just plain foolish. But the main directive of the prophetic is for edification, exhortation and equiping. Lots of people pray in a way that is inspired of God, prayers that come from the heart of God and bring help and comfort to the hearer, I propose that this is the prophetic gifting in action. The gifts by and large are not as dynamic as people make them out to be. I know a gifted Presbyterian counselor that is convinced that he flows in the gift of healing. I would agree.
Again, the key to combating error is truth. Not inventing a theology that Scriptures don’t support.
Thanks for commenting though and thanks for not stooping to insults and slurs.
Be Blessed!
I’m not going to try to convince you thru a blog. That would only insult your intelligence. But Grudem addresses that very same passage. The only times NT prophecy is infallible and “Scripture quality” is when it is uttered by an apostle. Grudem argues that NT prophecy is nothing more than a “prompting” and never carries with it authority as the very “word of God” unless spoken by one who already had that authority, i.e. an apostle of Christ. There is also a distinction between a general apostle (since the word means “messenger”) and the formal title, i.e. those who met the criteria of seeing Jesus after the resurrection.
Thanks for the civilized discussion. I don’t think name-calling is an effective witness to our common Salvation.
-Jonah
I agree with everything you wrote here. The cannon of Scripture is closed. (period)
I believe that the Holy Ghost is in operation and only a Deist would say He is not. I choose to use the terms in the NT to describe His workings. Others are uncomfortable with that.
It is my contention that God is not limited to what He has already said and done. BUT He will never contradict what He has done and more importantly what the NT says. Here is where gross error comes in.
I also do not think that there is such a thing as a national prophet in these days (others would disagree with this). I do not think any one person in the Body has that much authority. I don’t have scripture for that, just my opinion.
edit I read some of Grudman’s reviews on his book, The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today and I don’t see anything I don’t agree with. Those with the NT gift of prophesy are indeed fallible and you should not base major decisions on what they say. Is this what you believe? I believe the same.
God speaking audibly today? This is no longer a rare experience. For Jonah: I literally know at least a dozen people who have audibly heard the voice of God in my home church alone (but I do attend a rather unique church which is in the forefront of seeking true revival). I also am acqainted with at least another dozen who regularly have such experiences–none of whom I speak of would claim infallibility or understand their experiences to be on the same level of scripture. On the contrary, all are well grounded in evangelical theology, and the Bible is their guide for judging all such communication. Also Jonah, some of those folks have valid seminary degrees.
The first time I audible heard the voice of God was in 1977, I had just turned 30 and it was during the Jewish holy week. I can hardly speak of it with out shaking, it was God\’s call on my life. When I read about Isaiah\’s experience in the Temple I can truly relate to it. The ground shook underneath me and the floor was not low enough, I experienced the awesomeness of God–I literally thought I was going to die. Since then, I have heard the voice of God on a number of occasions, but not nearly so dramatic. Also Jonah, I have studied Grudem\’s book on the subject and I hold two seminary degrees, including a D.Min. from an accredited mainline Methodist seminary–my major area of study was Hermeneutics (Bible interpretation), Ironically, I went back to school for the Doctor\’s degree in response to an audible communication from God. There is much more I could say on this subject, but it is time for me to go to work. Hope this was helpful.
Michael - thanks for your comments. I wish someone would point me to this audible / nonaudible deliniation in the Bible. Like audible is some sort of test or something.
I say that I “hear” God lots. But rarely is it as clear as it has been in these morning times. In these times I get a complete sentence with clear understanding (not normally the case).
Michael, I don’t really rely on the experiences of others as much as you and your “forefront” church. Otherwise I’d be convinced that Elvis was still alive. Like I said, I don’t agree with Grudem on everything and I am completely unconvinced in the scriptures that we are to seek such supernatural experiences. We are to sustain ourselves on the Word, not the “words.” I don’t think we’re going to resolve the cessation issue here, so I won’t go into it, but regardless of subjective experiences, the Bible is it for me and I just don’t see anything in there that would contradict that.
-Jonah
Jonah, don’t you think if you continue to pour the Word of God into your heart on a regular basis, since the Word os Spirit and Life, that God is big enough to speak to His people? I do believe when God does speak, He will NOT speak anything contrary to His Word.
David, God is big enough to do whatever He chooses. No one is denying that, although your comment is a common one for charismatics. One problem that I have not been able to resolve, and thereby has resulted in my distance from charismatics (tho not resulting in cessationism yet.) If prophetic words are not the infallible words of God as Grudem proposes, then what good are they? If they are for “encouragement” that would suggest that we cannot find that encouragement in the Bible, which would make it ineffective. Not willing to go there.
Even if God does speak to us, and again, I believe He can, I find it ridiculous that it would be as often as some people claim. Abraham didn’t even talk to God as much as Bob Jones claims.
I am glad I am wasting my time with worshipping my heavenly Dad and proclaiming that the kingdom of God is “at hand”. I am glad that conversions to christ (the greatest miracle), healings and signs and wonders follow Gods ministry through me.
I won’t waste my time in fruitless discussions anymore. If that seems to harsh in your eyes, I am sorry or maybe not. Do the work God called you to do and stop wasting time, boy.
I don’t like this kind of conversation where each party already knows their own opinion and that one of the others. That is not even worth talking about it. Correct me if I am wrong here.
I cannot deny the fact that God has “spoken” to me…in fact it is much like Carl has experienced…sometimes one word or a phrase in the early mornings in prayer, or even when I first wake up. Not so much in an audible voice, but in a way that I know without a doubt He has spoken.
I agree God may not speak to people as much as some claim; yet when HIS Word is continually poured into your heart…and Hid Words are Spirit and LIFE…wouldn’t that open the door for Him to make even clearer His will to us? This is not meant to be antagonistic…there is a lot in Charasmatic Churches that make me gag….but somewhere we must not throw the baby out with the bathwater…find the plug and let the bathwater out.
I say again: God will never “speak” to people to do or say something contrary to His written word.
This will open another can of worms: could it be we need better policeing (sic) of the gifts without the quenching of the Holy Spirit?
David - I think Paul gave us the answer to policing the gifts. Let two or three prophesy and let the others judge. What happens on the fringe that Jonah is reacting to is a group of people who are elevated above the people and the Body does not judge the words that are spoken and there is not a public correction when the foretelling of events came back as false.
I met with a prophetic leader and asked him, “I got such and such a word one time and it never came to pass. How do you deal with that? What do you do?” The guy had no answer for me. HE said that he would think about it and get back to me. I was floored! I then gently mentioned a word that he had shared with the house about a building that God was going to give us that had just been bulldozed and turned into a furniture store. I mentioned that the word was never retracted. No answer. What does that mean? No prophecy? That would be against Scripture.
The truth is that nobody heard that word but him. The word should have been publicly judged. It was not. It was false.
My point? It is the exaltation of those with gifts that is the open door to the present errors. The apostles and prophets are supposed to be the foundation. The people under the rug. Not the big name conference headliners.
Their words should be tested more than any body’s. Their ministries should be scrutinized all the more. Otherwise they should not carry the title or the mantle.
I also think it is kind of funny that Jonah was the guy in the Bible who did not want to prophesy.
:)))))))))))))))
I agree…somewhere either the “prophets” have to preface their comments with “I think the Lord may be saying this, but I put this before you to judge…” or the apostles and pastors need to get back to the I Cor. instruction (which is the right thing) and judge the “words” given.
And despise not prophesying.
Jonah- May God continue to bless you through his word. It really isn\’t an \’either or\’ proposition, the Bible is for me also. God also continues to \’speak\’ to me and encourage me through his word-the Bible.
But what is it that enlivens The Word for us? Is it the \’words\’ themselves? The words are inspired and infallible. However, I have known and studied under major renoun Bible scholars who knew a lot more about the Bible than most anyone else. Had spent a lifetime studying the Word in the original languages. Could quote and had memorized large sections or books of the Bible, and yet it was only plain old words to them-nothing special- words that they many times personally disagreed with. My point–they received no benefit from The Word of God because they were unbelievers and did not have the Holy Spirit within them. When a believer reads the Bible, the Holy Spirit who inspired the writtings in the first place, enlivens the words and they fly off the page right into ones very soul. The Holy Spirit is our guide, our counselor, and our teacher. When the believer reads the Word, The Holy Spirit enlivens the words and speaks to us through his Word. He guides us, teaches us, brings encouragement, and shows us in the Word, where we need to make changes in our life. I have heard of Pastors who received a call to ministry and were convicted by the Holy Spirit when they were reading Paul\’s counsel to Timothy. Many missionaries testify that Holy Spirit came upon them in a special way one day when they were reading the Great Commision. My point is, Jonah, what you experience in reading the word is not substantially different from what many experience in receiving words of prophecy. The Holy Spirit is the source of both. Reading The Word IS an experience with the Holy Spirit!!
You ask what good is it if it is not \’infallible\’? The Bible is infallible, but would you say that your understanding and interpretation of it is? The Holy Spirit enlivens the truth in the Word, but we still see through a \’dark glass\’ and don\’t always receive it or preceive it 100%, and yet it is beneficial and essential for the believer. The individual Christian and the entire church is blessed by the work of the Holy Spirit in and through the Bible.
As the Holy Spirit speaks to us individually and corporately through the Word, I believe that the Holy Spirit still brings \’specific\’ words of counsel, direction, and encouragement to individuals and to churches today through words of prophecy. Those who receive \’prophetic words\’, receive from the Holy Spirit in much the same way that one is inspired when reading the Bible, except the message is usually for others, and for the Church. The prophetic message is always to be tested against scripture, should always be discerned, it isn\’t perfect, but it is beneficial and edifying. Just like Bible Teachers become more effective, and their interpretations of the Bible can become more accurate and beneficial through study and prayer. Those involved in prophetic ministry can mature in the gift and become more beneficial and far more accurate. That is, as they mature and grow in their ministry, the messages they bring, increasingly reflect a greater degree of what the Holy Spirit is truly saying to individuals and the church.
Now hearing the \’audible\’ voice of God-which started all these comments–is somewhat different in kind. It is usually for the one who received it, either as counsel or a message that one is called to bare and not forget. -or- Many times it is a sign of new beginnings, new direction, or of a new ministry. Jesus began his ministry after hearing his Fathers voice at his baptism, After the Mount of Transfiguration–Jesus headed for Jerusalem and the cross. Saul on the road to Damascus heard the voice and became the Apostle Paul.
David Copeland said:
“somewhere either the “prophets” have to preface their comments with “I think the Lord may be saying this, but I put this before you to judge…” or the apostles and pastors need to get back to the I Cor. instruction (which is the right thing) and judge the “words” given.”
That is exactly my opinion! And if someone, who claims that he/she has received a word from God, has a problem with getting this word judged, then they should test there own motivation. It might be some kind of spiritual pride in this case.
Tom said: “I won’t waste my time in fruitless discussions anymore. If that seems to harsh in your eyes, I am sorry or maybe not. Do the work God called you to do and stop wasting time, boy.”
If we’re wasting your time, no one is forcing you to read. You haven’t added anything to this discussion but a condescending tone, congrats. Sincerely, the “boy.”
Carl, I’m glad you were able to get a laugh out of my screen name. However, the Sign of Jonah was a rebuke to a wicked generation who seeks after a sign and a wonder as proof that God was in their midst. Not quite as funny.
No, still quite funny. Jonah fought with God and did not want to prophesy. People were rebelling against God and he sent the prophetic word to correct them. He did not order people to send the scriptures. He did not command an order to have the scriptures read. He sent the prophet. In fact this was so pleasing to God Jesus said, “The only sign this generation will get is the sign of Jonah.”
Now if Jonah was Sola Scriptura for revelation, what would have happened? Jonah brought no new doctrines. He came and delivered the message of God. Repent.
And you with your semi cessationist confession are doing the same thing Jonah did. Declaring righteousness to what you perceive to be a perversion of the will of God.
Quite amusing.
Again, not a reference to the OT. Still don’t quite get it.
Be Blesed Jonah
Take it easy.
Wow! A red hot discussion on the Revival Blog! I can feel the heat coming through my keyboard. I like this from Psalm 40:5:
“Many, O Lord my God, are your wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you. Were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare.”
The part that the Holy Spirit has been emphasizing to me is … “were I to speak and tell of them.” As I have pursued intimacy with the Beloved and have pondered His ways, I am learning that His love for His children is more profound that can be humanly expressed. That love is desperate to communicate to us. And, I emphasize the word desperate – the desperation of desire. Consider Psalm 139:17-18:
“How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I am awake, I am still with you.”
I can picture the Beloved standing by our bed, knowing we need our rest, but wishing to wake us to talk. He is so excited with the heart and desires of His child that He can’t wait to speak as soon as we awake. If His thoughts toward us outnumber the grains of sand in on the seashore, certainly His desire to communicate with us burns in His breast. Thus, a clear expression of His heart upon wakening from sleep is not strange at all. In fact, those who are in love with Him would welcome such exchange! “When I am awake, I am still with you.”
The question is … how much of one’s personal relationship with the Beloved do you share in the public square? Ps. 139 17 – “… were I to speak and tell of them.” When doing so, that which is precious can easily be trampled. Intimacy is a highly personal thing, and in my opinion, should be guarded carefully. This discussion began with an intimate moment and changed to the place of the prophetic in believer’s meeting and other stuff. How sad. Does one share the intimacy enjoyed in the bedroom with one’s spouse in the public square? Is it “odd” for God to speak to one of His children as they awake in the morning? Not at all. What I am learning is that trust works both ways. As I grow in my relationship with the Beloved, I am able to rest and exercise an increasing level of trust. As the Beloved shares with me, His trust level increases with me as I protect the risk He takes with what He shares with me. The Apostle Paul (2 Cor. 12:4) said he heard things that he was not permitted to tell. I see the current “signs and wonders” (gold dust, gem stones, etc.) not only as a tangible expression of His love for us, but also as a test. If we desire the “weighter” things of the Spirit, how are we handling that which we currently have?
As to degrees, I could boast of them, since I have them; however, I consider them as dung. One moment with the Beloved is worth more than a world of degrees. And, since I don’t interact much on blogs (though I do have a particular interest in this one), I will leave with this thought. On this particular site, someone wrote about what they learned in one year of blogging. I would recommend it to anyone!
Good word Ruben!
See Carl…we do read this blog!
Well, I’m not going to argue canon here because that isn’t what you need right now.
What you need to know is yes, it has happened to me. I’ve also been woken up in the middle of the night, waited a few minutes and had God tell me that I had to do something… so I wrote it down and went back to sleep. Every time it was something that I later learned someone had prayed for.
I’ve also heard him in my car, in traffic, and watching tv.
You aren’t weird. You aren’t crazy. You aren’t alone.
So I hope it was something awesome…
Thanks David. It is nice to meet you.
I believe that God is constantly attempting to speak to us. Just the other night I had a wonderful dream that I am sure was given as a gift from the Holy Spirit. Over the past several months, I have enjoyed many treasures as God spoke through a systematic men’s Bible study of 1 & 2 Thessalonians and Philippians. Two of those books I have memorized, yet, there was fresh manna every time we met. In fact, there were two powerful understandings that I had never before considered (even though I have the passages memorized!), which gave me much to ponder. One, the Spirit revealed to me as we were discussing the background of Philippians and reading a chapter in Acts, and the other came through something the Lord showed one of the brothers in his study. Both are examples of God speaking. Someone invited my wife and me over to their home to celebrate my birthday, and in the process gave me a birthday card. To my astonishment, the card said something that the Holy Spirit spoke earlier to my heart. The birthday card suddenly was transformed into a most precious gift, and it served not only as confirmation of that which was whispered to my heart, but also of its importance. When I wrote the last post, several verses in Psalm 139 “jumped of the page” (as they say). I received a call that same day from a couple who want to get together and have specific questions about a difficult situation, and the Holy Spirit “quickened” those verses to share with them in answer to their dilemma. I belive this is an example of God speaking. A brother emailed me with a “word” he received for my son. He woke up at a certain time, and he finished praying at a certain time. He believed that the time on the clock when he started praying and the time on the clock when he stopped praying had prophetic significance. While I have known others to whom God has used this as a method of speaking to them, God has never spoken to me through such a medium – yet, the prophetic insight he offered proved to be true. Even my prayer life has changed. I don’t speak as much – I listen more. It is much more exciting!
I simply share the above examples as encouragement for some of the others who commented earlier. What is prayer? Is it simply a monologue? Or is it two parties sharing their hearts and love which each other?
Two quick hits:
(1)I once heard a Bible teacher who said that the first few moments upon wakening from sleep are critical. It is one of the premier opportunities that the enemy attempts to use to plant a suggestion in the mind to disparagingly color the rest of the day.
(2)I heard a different Bible teacher who offered this advice: When you read the New Testament, whenever you come across the word “grace,” substitute the word “Holy Spirit” in your reading. This simple device can open new vistas of wonder with God.
Just a quick clarification on the first quick hit. Those first few moments after awakening from sleep - I did not mean to suggest Carl that it was the enemy speaking. Quite the contrary! It is a premier opportunity to hear God speak, because the mind is not yet cluttered with the activities of the day. It is a wonderful opportunity to take a moment to consciously bring a Scripture to mind or to use the moment to listen before jumping up to begin the activities of the day. In my case, sometimes I jump up and rush through a day of hurried activity, and it is the only time that God can get a word in!
Carl- I believe that the comments made by Ruben are the best in this case and comes closest to the heart of God.
Jonah- By the way- when Carl said: “Be Blesed Jonah”, I really do believe that he meant it, and was not trying to be smart.
I believe that he was being serious and I wasn’t trying to sound smart myself. I wish you all the best.
I am somewhat amazed that this generated this much comment. All I said was that I heard God.
I was genuine in my farewell to Jonah. The little I have seen of his blog tells me that he is reacting to some errors that he has seen an in fact the pendulum swing both ways.
I do appreciate the comments of Ruben and you made several points.
I have made it a concious decision to make myself vulnerable so that others can know that there is such a thing as a balanced relationship with God. I hear God. I minister prophetically. I see lots of goofy stuff that people do in the name of Jesus that God is not in. I get it from both sides.
I will never put up for debate what God ahs told me. It’s not up for discussion. But I do realize that part of what my role in the Body has to do with laying out my relationship with God with the goal that others will be provoked to have a more intimate, dynamic relationship with Him. I know that and more importantly, He knows that. There are many things he has told me in private that I have not even shared with my wife. Many others I have shared with no one but her.
I was particularly moved by your comment on God so wanting fellowship that He speaks as soon as I wake up. He is always desiring fellowship. I really love the Lord.
Ronnie - Thanks for checking in.
David - You make me laugh. From what I have read from Reuban, you two would have some interesting discussions.
Thanks Carl…
This thread has just proven to you that you DO have something to give the Body of Christ; people do hear from the Lord…God is NOT impressed, depressed or concerned with what “we” think…and that people are interested in meaningful discussion that is not attacking (at least I am!) But at the same time I’m with Tom…I don’t have time to argue just for the sake of having an argument.
It’s funny…just when you thought you had everything “calmed down” in your life, God starts using you in the prophetic. You saw the gooffyness you saw in order to get you open to the genuine.
You are learning the difference between the baby and the bathwater:)