Ashamed of the Gospel?
August 4th, 2006 by Carl Thomas.By now most people know that Church Growth Today put out its list of the 100 fastest growing churches in the U.S.
They list 11 independent Charismatic Churches and 5 Assemblies of God churches among the 100. I thought it would neat to put together an interactive map showing where all the Spirit-Filled churches are. So off I went to the websites of the churches listed
The only problem was that I could not tell the Baptists churches from the Pentecostal ones. There was a time when Pentecostals were persecuted for their faith but that is no longer the case. Is it because we no longer glory in the second blessing?
Do we just have a different way of doing church or is there something inherently different about being Baptised in the Holy Ghost? I don’t bash people over the head with doctrinal differences but when people from other streams of Christianity ask me counsel about following God or overcoming sin or engaging in the Great Commission my first advise is almost always,
Did I not get the memo that we have to trick people into coming to our services?
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I am troubled also by the AG’s attempt to be accepted by the mainstream that we are forfieting our role as a “leader” in the Pentecostal movement. Have we been so consumed by the need to be accepted we have lost the John the Baptists anointing?
please understand I am all for teaching: but George Barna has stated as long as the “church” advocates teaching only, the church in America will continue to flounder in mediocrity. I say that quote in a recent Ministries Today.
I heard Steve Hill say in 2001 the reason we don’t see more widespread revival in America is by and large Americans are content to live without it!
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I pray that changes. Our church doesn’t teach enough on the gifts of the Spirit or operate in a few of them very openly. Granted our ministry teams, and more intimate counseling things, classes, etc do. If you are only a sunday Christian, you won’t hear much about it. I can’t wait for the day healings occur on sunday mornings… Prophecies given on Sunday mornings, and the Glory falls on the congregation…
I pray for that day. I know it’s coming.
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I am all for teaching. Specifically, we should have to teach people what all the comotion is about in the service!
“Just like the day of Pentecost, Lord let the fire fall!”
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I’m with you on that note Carl. I’d rather need to teach about what’s really happening, than to teach about what should be happening
I’d appreciate some prayer while Sue and I are on our hols the next two weeks. We’re feeling a bit dry and discouraged right now. We hunger so much for so much of God’s presence that it hurts every time we settle for less. I think He’s intentionally making us dissatisfied so that we keep going for more. What we need while we’re away is a combination of clear thinking and powerful encounter.
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Mark - Praise God! Sounds like someone is being drawn deeper. I pray that He invade your everything!
More Lord!
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I don’t think they are different ways of doing church, but I do think there are theological differences. I think there are some churches that don’t preach or teach people to search for a deeper level. I come from a Wesleyan Holiness background, and the difference between our group and the Pentecostal group was the issue of speaking in tongues and it being THE sign of baptism.
There are several thing I have found:
1. I think there are a lot more churches preaching the need for the believer to live holy lives. They don’t necessarily speak of it in terms that those from the holiness movement speak of it, but they do speak of it.
2. I think the experience is often glorified over the person actually receiving the Holy Spirit. If the experience does not lead to a deeper level of spiritual commitment and cleansing, then it wasn’t a genuine experience or the person wasn’t obedient. There are too many experience seekers.
3. The teaching doesn’t line up with what the person experiences. This may sound contrary to #2, but it is not meant to be. For instance, in my background they taught that a person could live without sin. They didn’t mean all sin, but they did mean “willful disobedience.” Problem was that no matter how hard some people fought and sought, they could seem to overcome some things. They also went on to describe “sanctification” as something that I believe is impossible without our being in heaven.
These things I think combine to make a lot of people reject the notion entirely. This is unfortunate, but I am encouraged by many churches that seem to be speaking of holiness and the Spirit-filled life in their own language.
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eric - Interesting comment.
I agree with the over emphasis on tongues. I know a young man who was almost in tears because he had not received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I said that the fact that he regularly gets visions and prophetic words for people is evidence of the baptism. Tongues is AN evidence, but biblically, not the only initial evidence.
What is more telling to me is that it would seem that the purpose of the pentecostal baptism has shifted. Is the baptism mmore than an experience? And if so, what is its purpose? Is that purpose important? And if so, do you think that Jesus intended for all to obtain it?
I would say that the baptism in the Holy Ghost is vital. Christians need the power of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives as first manifested in a desire for and seeking of holiness. With a second manifestation of power to minister. Tongues is a tool to build your inner man so that you may minister to others. To many Christians want a rake but have no plan to do yard work. This is error in my opinion.
In regards to you points:
1. I will have to take your word on that. I don’t see many churches other than my own except for television churches which I don’t think represent anything in reality.
2. Agreed. But I would say that there are to many experience seekers because there are to many people teaching that the baptism is an experience instead of challangeing people to do the impossible and telling them that the key is the Holy Ghost.
3. I know David preaches in a lot of holiness churches so maybe he could check in with this one but I do not believe in instant and total sanctifiction. I do belive in progressive sanctification and while many believers struggle with condemnation, few people who seek holiness do not sin less over time.
If we believe that the baptism in the Holy Ghost is such a big event, why would you hide the fact that people could receive it at your church?
I believe in the baptism. Does that make my blog better? Of course not. But if you want to get deeper in God by His Spirit, here I am. When I preach, I regularly start with a similar disclaimer.
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Carl, your question about hiding the fact is what gets me. There is so much power in the baptism and it literally frees people that it bothers me that it is as hidden as it is. It is to the point now that I have invited people off campus to experience it and this small group has its own following now. I pray that it becomes the norm more often. I know a handful of people who describe such passion and clarity of mind, excitement at what God is doing in their lives and changed lives. I know for myself alone the past few months have been radical change in my own life.
On the other side of the coin, I’m still seeing fruit from it not being “shouted from the pulpit”… I’m seeing lives changed and I think it isn’t a fundamental thing that is stressed but the giftings are stressed and used and peoples lives are being changed.
Would I like to see it stressed more? Yes, at least explained more often so its not a hushed whisper of a thing, lest we become charismaniacs sort of feeling that I get at times.
I think too many people will only welcome the Holy Spirit in if he behaves like a perfect gentleman.
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There ARE a lot of churches who preach that believers need to live holy lives. A misnomer going around is preachers are not preaching like they used too. And that the Holy Ghost is not convicting people as strong as He used too. I totally disagree with that philosophy…I know many preachers and churches who are still strong \”holiness preaching and believing as they ever have been. There are people though in all full gospel circles who thing the message is out of date.
Second, it was said people are glorifying experience over the person actually receiving the Baptism. eeeehhhhh I agree 50/50. While there are those who are hung up on experience, people who are afraid of \”experiences\” need to remember life is one experience after another. If you don\’t believe life is full of experiences, ask your mother about the experience she had giving birth! (just kidding:) I firmly believe though, we must judge every experience by the Word of God only. Not doctrinal papers and the \”party line\”. I still have problems with roaring and clucking….
Thirdly, I have not been to any churches who still believe in either entire sanctification or an instantaneous sanctification as was preached so much in the early days of the modern full gospel movement. Solid preaching of Biblical sanctification (which is a life long process) has rooted most of that out in the circles I travel in. I think people have realized (most anyway) that was a Pharisaical teaching that was bringing more bondage on people than real liberty.
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David - ran a check for you.
Thanks for checking in. From what I picked up, it seems that you preach in a fair amount of holiness churches. I was a bit verbose in my last reply and thus a little less than clear. My point was that I see people who have a hard time receiving the baptism often because they see tongues as a goal instead of a means to seek a Spirit empowered life.
I prayed for a woman for the better part of 20 minutes this past Sunday. She has been saved for years but never spoke in tongues. Unfortunately, she still doesn\’t. I could not get her quiet long enough to receive.
While I was praying for her, a group started coming into the room that we were in for their weekly bible study. They wanted me to continue praying for them. After another twenty minutes two of the women in the group received their prayer language and I left with the group leader layed out on the ground.
Did the Holy Ghost show partiality? Surely not. But something got in the way.
btw - While you were away I asked you a question here http://revivalblog.com/2006/07/10/delicious/
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we separate ourselves according to race, doctrine and goatee or non-goatee…
my question is who’s purpose is better served by the church being divided? Gods or you know who
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ubertech - I agree that divisions are of the enemy but all congregations have doctrinal distinctions. And those are not bad. I followed your trip to the west coast believers convention. You went there with a certain expectation. Others avoided it becasue of the same reasons. Is that division? It is not always bad to be around like minded believers.
btw, did you know visitors can’t comment on your site?
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ubertech replied via email with - I don’t disagree with your comments, a lot of churches don’t mention all of what they “really believe” because they don’t want to scare away or offend potential visitors. Is that right? well frankly thats not my call because I’m not the head of the church and the leadership of those ministries will have to give account on how they managed or mismanaged the ministries God placed into their hands.
I agree. Not my call. But a worthy question none the less. Inderstand why a church would not put on the front page, “We run the isles and act like complete freaks when the Holy Ghost falls” (though I would certainly visit) but how about in your statement of faith at lease state something along the lines of, “We reject cesationism” or “We believe that the Gifts of the Spirit are active today.”
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I know stating this could bring about recourse, but I don’t think we should define ourselves by what we are NOT. I agree that our statement of faith should say something of value, but again, I often aim for broadness.
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eric - I completely agree. that’s why I put the second one in there. I cringe when I read a sof that includes what we do not believe. To me, broad is good, avoidant is not. If you do not plan to state what you actually believe then why put one up at all? If your church revolves around discipleship then why is it not prominent in the sof? If your church revolves around the Sunday morning meeting, why is that not prominent? I ask, if the baptism in the Holy Ghost is not a prominent part of your church (not yours specifically of course) what is it? That elusive feeling? I don’t see how it can’t be central. And therefor, why the site would not state it.
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I personally think that is why it is not stated-because it is not what is emphasized. They belong to a denomination or have a theological heritage that they feel they need to honor.
Sometimes I think they feel a need to distance themselves from the extremes of their past. While part of another church denomination, I avoided explicit statements that connected with their statement of belief so that I could explain it in its proper context and the way I felt spoke with the current generation. I had plenty of people angry with me because I did not choose the immediately recognizable words they were used to seeing…as though I had to use those and only those terms to explain the theological concept.
Just my thoughts.
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This generation is not rejecting Jesus as much as they have no interest in our “christianese”…
What made Jesus a terror to the pharisees was his ability to put into every day terminology what all men are looking for: relationship with God the Father
just my thoughts….
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That is exactly right, David.
Theological terms are extremely helpful for the precision work of academia. But they bore everyone else. I don’t think people reject the concept as much as they reject the language used to describe it. They can’t reject the concept because they don’t understand it.
I compare it to me attempting to sit in with a bunch of computer programmers and understand their discussion of computer programming languages. It is not my thing, and I want to understand their concepts in everyday language.
Though I think this may be taking the conversation in a direction unintended by the blog article.
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maybe so….but still I think all of us agree whether we have the correct terminology…we are not ashamed of the Gospel…and I am not ashamed of the Holy Spirit! (or Holy Ghost!)
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