For those looking for a theological discussion regarding the priesthood of the believer, you will be disappointed.
In the other churches I have been a part of, the ministers were ordained by the local church. All the formal ministers were on staff. There were never ministers that were not a part of the governmental structure of the church.
In my church, we have a mixture of pastors licensed by the denomination and another accrediting agency. We even have a pastor that is not licensed. He is called a staff pastor but could not perform a wedding. This is a bit of an odd phenomenon.
But here is my question for you,
What benefit do you get from your credentialing authority other than meeting the legal and denominational requirements to minister?
I have ministerial credentials from Christian Ministries International Fellowship. It is headed up by my pastor so it made sense to get licensed through them. There is a monthly meeting that is available for fellowship and an annual conference.
Popularity: 38% [?]
in 2000, my wife and I spent 7 months in Ghana with a small non-denominational church planting mission in Accra. We listened to story after story of God moving, just because He’s God… outside of a denominational context.
The sad thing is that it actually took me an unfortunately long time to get over that these AMAZING people were not “affiliated” with the denomination I was with in Canada.
How SAD is that and what does it really say about our mindset about ministry. My hunch is that Peter was not covered by the Assemblies. Paul didn’t attend many Monthly Lunch Theology Sessions.
While there may not be anything inherently “sinful” about our structure and ordination system…Being confused that this is necessary and a qualification of ANY CONSEQUENCE is dead wrong.
“The were ordinary unschooled men and the people knew that these men had been with Jesus”
Hubby & I are ordained through a small local church. If there’s need, we could marry, bury, etc. and if we wanted to, we could simply start a nondenom church. We’re in training to become church planters and we’ll eventually get license through our denomination. We’re not going that route because we “need” to, but because we strongly feel that’s what God is calling us to do.
What do we get out of our “credentialling authority” ? Not much more than before we were credentialled… but “not much more” translates to a WHOLE lot! All the support we need.
@Dave & Kathi- thanks for the comments.
I would definitely agree that credentialing does not make the minister. But when I got credentialed I was hoping for a little more in the way of Apostolic oversight.
Kathi, it seems you are already getting that in the local church.
It really depends on the denomination. If one is in agreement, at least tolerably so, with the official doctrine and polity, then certain benefits accrue with the size and stature of a denomination. For instance, chaplaincies are often assigned proportionately to denominational size. There are times when missionary penetration into a country is aided by denominational affiliation, as well as are recruitment and support for missionaries in the field. Certain employee benfits are much easier to provide and maintain (like 403b’s, healthcare, life insurance, etc.) from a denominational organization rather than a local church. Church programming (like camps, retreats, scouting, fine arts, Sunday School, VBS, etc) are often easier for a small denominational church to provide than for an small independent church, especially for distinctive doctrinal positions. For the minister, it is often easier to find a new field of ministry within a denomination structure than for the minister on his or her own. Sometimes denominations have specialists on retainer, lawyers, consultants, financial advisors, etc., which can come in handy at times. Does this help?
Carl,
While we weren’t pastors, at our previous (AoG) church, we noted a SEVERE lack of support, direction, and heck - money - coming to the pastor of our troubled church. Even when we went above said pastor’s head and told the higher-ups that he really needed some help (and not really his fault that he did!!) … we were basically ignored. As a result, this called man of God shut the church down and is half-heartedly seeking ministry elsewhere.
It’s all about the AoG churches being “sovereign” and therefore there’s no “apostolic oversight” (or, in our experience, ANY oversight). Note that this is my opinion about my experience, others’ mileage may vary.
We’ve become members at a Foursquare church, and have noted that there’s a vast difference between the two fellowships. Our pastor talks all the time about all the support he gets.
A friend of mine once told me, “You are as accountable as you make yourself.” Whether baptist, A/G, presbyterian, non-denominiational, or whatever else is out there.
I have found that to be true — it’s easy to hide behind so-called “denominational accountability” — but if you will not truly submit yourself to it — it will often times go unchecked (outside of moral failure - i.e. adultery).
I am licensed thru WOLC in North KC. I was with the Assemblies for 12 years and have been non-denom. for 8 years now. I left the A/G on my own accord (no problems led me out)- and I have found I am far more accountable to the folks in my church (they know I’m non-denom. ya’ know). Of course we have other pastors and other ministires who check in on us — and would be called upon to deal with any improprieties.
So I suppose I am saying — no matter what your affiliation — accountability is up to you, fellowship is up to you, submission to godly leadership is up to you, keeping the flame alive its up to you. in short, we must follow hard after Him! That’s what I’ve been learning these past years.
God bless!
I don’t really know what to say to this topic. On one hand, it seems to be “more secure” to have someone ministering to you who is ordained and somehow responsible before a group of people who stand “above” him/her. Someone this minister allows to deal with him/her and ask him/her the more uncomfortable questions. On the other hand I see my own situation. I have finished theological seminary now. Friends of mine from Africa and the UK told me, that I could call myself a “minister” now. I see that I’m called into full time ministry. But as I’m moving to the UK now I will first look around for a job to make a living, cause I only have a few people now who are willing to invest some money in the kingdom work I do. I see myself as a minister since God called me into the ministry in 1999. But I never really used this “title”. I don’t need it. God confirms my words with what He does around and through me, and in my eyes, that is “ordination enough”. And I have people who are allowed to questions me, my actions and my motives and I will be part of a team in the UK. So I think I’m moving forward on a good path.
Tom
Great comments and I hope they continue!
@slw - You have brought up points that the young minister would often overlook. Especially true are the career options open when credentialed by the denomination. This does help.
@Kathi - Thanks for checking in. It seems like each AG region could be as different as the churches. Glad you found your place in the Foursquare.
@ Shane - I have found that you can’t rely on your credentialing agency to keep you accountable. But I do have a question.
Is your church AG? I thought you had to be at least a licensed minister with the AG to lead an AG church.
When I got my credentials I was hoping for a little more Apostolic oversight (someone would actually be interested in my ministry).
@Tom - I hear what you are saying. There are clear benefits to getting your credentials and I would never attend a church lead by a man that did not have them again.
1. Credentialing lets people know that at least in theory you have submitted yourself to a group of more senior ministers.
2. It shows that you met some level of training.
3. At least here in the US, you meet legal requirements.
The real question is why a full time minister would not seek professional accreditation? Though this is certainly optional for someone who is not a professional minister. I guess, in my mind, the need comes when money is involved or the legal need.
Type your comment here.
You are correct that credentialing with
denominations or even parachurch organizations only give you legal and denominational benefits. In scripture,
of course, you only were what the Spirit said to you and the ekklesia. So Paul and Barnabas were “set apart” for God’s work at the command of the Spirit. Timothy was set apart by the elders of his church by “the laying on of hands” and that was good enough to get drafted by Paul for Apostolic mission work and later oversight of churches. “ordaination” and credentialing are what we are stuck with after the church/state fiasco of Constantine and the semi reformation of Protestantism. What does the Spirit call you to do and what will the ekklesia and state (if really necessary to do God’s will) allow you
to do without it? Same question with it.
Hope this helps,
Love and peace in our Lord,
Your fellowservant,
Steve Cornell
Carl,
I am actually pastoring a non-denom. church my wife and I founded 8 years ago (sorry if I misled in any way).
The Assemblies did endeavor to set up a “system” of support (i.e. national HQ/ state or district HQ/ and sectional presbyters). The problem is that a “system” cannot replace “relational ministerial support”. I think the heart was in the right place when they developed their plan - its just not that effective. A major problem you run into is that your presbyter is also a pastor in the area (which unfortunately can breed jealousies and suspicians that you are going to go after “their” people). I know that this type of thinking is wrong - but many pastors battle this thinking (a pastor’s temptations and wrong thoughts can be vastly different than the other folks who attend and support the church).
I do feel that much of the denominiational security that church goers feel is very much so a facade. If anything, it often times acts as a cloak for the pastor to hide behind, i.e. “If he was doing something wrong the denominiation wouldn’t allow him to stay here.”
The fact is most “denoms” do not want to get involved unless it is painfully obvious that they have know other choice.
Don’t get me wrong I do not disqualify any denomination or its pastors — if I was to have stayed in MO — I probably would not have made the decision to leave the AGs. I simply reiterate what my friend said, “We are as accountable as we make ourselves.” That statement shook me to the core — I have endeavored to make myself accountable to my wife first/ my pastoral peers/ to my church (and first and foremost to God).
One more thing — though I tend to agree with some other posts here about feeling more comfortable w/ licensed or ordained ministers from a recognized body — I still hear echos in my spirit of the stand John Bunyan took (thereby landing him in prison).
God bless all!
My belief is that our Calling to ministry is not given by God to us alone. He has chosen to work through a church or community of believers. If I have a “calling” and my church disagrees, then I need to reassess my calling. I believe that is the way God set it up.
And I do believe we need some sort of official endorsement. Jesus called out twelve from among the vast number of disciples and invested heavily in them. It wasn’t that they just decided to start doing something…Jesus commissioned them and sent them out to commission others.
God does move and work in and through people who are not “official”, but that in no way means we should by the ordinary means by which he works. It just means that we need to be willing to accept when God is doing something different and maybe just go over and “ordain” that.